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Topics - Moon1ight

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The Study / A Thelemic View on Fiction
« on: May 17, 2021, 11:43:46 pm »
I'm often drawn to fiction, but find it unfulfilling when I pursue it. I've been wondering about what its proper role is. I think I understand now.

The Paradox

Producing fiction - games, novels and so on - is apparently the True Will of some people. However, it's hard to imagine that consuming fiction is someone's True Will. So are the producers to create for nobody? That seems wrong.

The Resolution

"Fiction conveys experience" ( says Yudkowsky. However, reading Sword and Sorcery fiction  won't teach you *much* about either. What it will show you is whether you are drawn to these topics. It helps with finding your True Will. That is its function.

If, however, you already know your True Will, then you should stay away and "Do what thou wilt—then do nothing else." (

Hi everyone,
just wanted to let you know that this Forum is now officially an Archive. The Signup is deactivated and only moderators can write posts.

Thanks to Seisatsu, our host, for keeping it up – there's good material here to read.

To get it touch with us, see the Discord and Facebook Groups.

The Forum is back to Life!

Please Remember:

"Just Do Magick"
- Arjil

Magick – Fulfilled Wishes, Fulfilled Lives

Magick – the Art of Doing the Impossible – can be divided into Low Magick (achieving fulfilled wishes) and High Magick (achieving fulfilled lives). This text will try to cover both in the most direct way possible. Before we begin, an illustrated poem by PsyVirion:

An Oistar's Primer

 "D" is for Domus, home for our heart.
 "K" is for Kaotica,  the place where we start.
 "M" is for Marauder, so proud and so fierce.
 "U" is for Underground, where the Veils we do pierce.

Now to Low Magick.

Here we're concerned with simply getting what we want. Any wishes you have can be supported by Magick. If there's a secret to Low Magick, it's that you don't have to follow anyone else's path – you can have Your Magick, Your Way. Arjil describes a way to get there:

"You know how you can recall the feeling of a physical sensation or an Emotion?  Like the feel of wind, or drinking something cold, or stubbing your toe, or excitement- and you can, if you concentrate, Feel it?
So what you do, Pretending to be a Wizard, just imagine what *Your* magick Feels like, what it would look like blasting out as a spell- Kids don’t worry about How it will work, they just do it, usually with some impressive whooshing sound effect.
Or maybe your magick is quiet and creeps like tendrils of smoke, or flows like water.
Summon the vision, and more importantly, summon the Feeling, and Pretend like a kid that you’re casting your spell, and like a kid, Believe it."

Here's more of him:

"Really, it doesn't much matter What you do to make the magick work, only that you do something that you can believe in.
If you were a witch, say, and you were going to cast this spell, what would you do, if you had magick at your fingertips? - Imagine.

now Do That, and mean it.
believe in it.

That's a spell as good as any other.
Not to say that they always work, or work how we expect them to,
But that works as well as any other sort. Finding Your way is the trick."

Lastly, here's my own take on it:

Learning Only Magick

What kind of title is that? Very simple: This text does not deal with chakras, archangels, ethics, stones, demons, herbs, tools or rituals. It deals Only with Magick – the Art of Doing the Impossible. Magick with no intermediaries.

So you have wishes. Getting well, helping your friend find a job, removing that asshole out of your life, geting laid or making the world a better place. What you care about is not the wish though, it's the outcome – you are healthy, your friend has a great job and the asshole is gone or actually became a friend somehow. That's what we do Magick for.

However, a desired outcome is not Magick – it's just a desire. Now what differentiates a desire from Magick? Here's where other texts will start speaking about sigils, candles and archangels. Doing something will turn the desired outcome into Magick and from there to an actual outcome. However, I have no "somethings" – I only have Magick. The Only thing that can differentiate Magick from desires is Magick itself.

So how to use that? You have to intentionally infuse your desired outcome with Magick. How? Well, how to lift a weight? You don't need a candle or a sigil, just lift it. You're already born with the capability of lifting weights – movement is a "standalone capability". You cannot get to it via candles, you have to do Only Movement. Of course, some weights are too heavy to lift, but it's not because you used the wrong colour of candle – it's because your muscles are too weak.

Magick is just like that – you're born with the capability to do it. It's less visible than your muscles, but I can't find your capabilities to enjoy music or to fall in love under the microscope either and they clearly exist. So how to find that capability of Magick?

If you have an instinct now, how Magick feels for you, what it means to "infuse your desired outcome with Magick" or to "magickally intend the outcome", then that is the answer. Just do that – practice it on the outcomes you desire and get good – more on that later. The system improves with use, just like your muscles.

If not, here's a starting point: In your ideal world, how would you do it? How would you wish the process worked? Start doing that and feel into yourself, what feels like Magick to you. How does a lifting a weight feel, as opposed to seeing a video of a weight being lifted? How does doing Magick feel, as opposed to seeing it done in Harry Potter? That feeling is your Only tool. Just like the feeling of lifting weights only comes with, you know, lifting actual weights, your feeling of Magick comes with Magick – so there is Only your desired outcome and Magick. Very simple. What could a candle or lines on paper really add?

A final note: When Magick helps you, be grateful. Grateful to Magick, grateful to your spirits, grateful to the Universe and to the Root of Universe – however you see it. Magick deserves it and it also helps. You can even make yourself feel gratitude for your desired outcome right after doing the Magick, as if it already worked – "Thankfully it all went well". It feels good and some say that this makes the Magick stronger.


> How to focus on the outcome which you want to infuse with Magick?
If you have an answer, if you feel a way, then that's the way. Perhaps a clear, positive statement ("I find a great appartment on the cheap") and your Magick is all you need. If not, here are some ideas to try:

Imagine it being true – I don't say "visualise" because that's not all there is! See your friend being healthy again, hear him telling you how he feels good again, feel his temperature being back to normal – whatever applies. How do you imagine always being healthy? See and hear yourself at the next New Years Eve, talking about how you were healthy the entire year and feel how good that feels.
But don't think that's the Magick! This is not "Law of Attraction" here. Imagining is just focusing on the outcome. Now infuse it with Magick, intend it to become reality. As Arjil says "Utilize your imagination on the Front end of spellcasting, not the Back end."

Make a symbol out of it – sigilise the desired outcome. What? Wasn't I arguing against that? Yes, if you try to use that instead of Magick itself – if you try to get to Magick through Not-Magick. It's only paper and ink, just like a desire is only a desire. But you can use it to focus the desired outcome. "This sigil symbolises that the job interview goes well for me" – now infuse it with Magick.

Create a Spirit for it – or a "thoughtform" or a "servitor". Focus on the outcome that there is a spirit which intends your actual outcome to happen and makes it happen. This is what I do for outcomes which are permanent – I always want to stay healthy, have my stuff work well and so on. Focus on its qualities (like look, character, voice) and on its intent – which desired outcome it is to make (or keep) a reality. Infuse that with Magick and keep powering it up regularly as long as you wish. Witches' familiars, Chaos Magick's servitors – our long-term solutions.

> What to practice on?
Here is where occult texts can be helpful – what outcomes can you try? Random ideas: Meet a person with red hair, a red bag and a tiny dog next week. Help a nervous friend stay concentrated in an exam. Create a shield that blocks of anything that would lead you away from your desired outcomes. Pull energy from any of the various traditional sources to feel more energetic. Damn, just be happy, able to afford what you want and have a good time.
I personally only do stuff I really care about, unlike the first example, though I did my share of that when I started. I'm okay with not seeing immediate effects, with, among other things, "just" staying healthy most of the time and getting well in a few days when I do fall sick.

> Why do I think this works?
Because of my experience with it working. Ask yourself from the other side: If Only Magick doesn't work, why would adding a candle (of the right colour!) help? Is the world such that wax has magickal properties, but your actually felt Magick does not? Why should an archangel be able (and willing!) to do it, but you can't? He's a spirit and so are you. You even managed to get a body somehow, which is pretty cool, though not without disadvantages. Also, what do you think a demon does when conjured? Draw a circle and conjure another demon? Only Magick. So let's just skip the middleman.

To me, if Magick works at all, it must be Only Magick. Everything else is just to reserve time, space and concentration for infusing your will with Magick. Or of course to make people pay money and bolster some guru's ego.

Let me finish with the words of two people who taught me a lot:

Arjil: "When you think about magick, how do you Wish the process worked?
Do That. Keep at it till it works. And it will."

Gracco: "just do it. that is literally the clearest terms"

"the Really important bit to doing magick is the Doing of the Magick." –Arjil

Before we get to High Magick, I want to quickly address the Law of Attraction.

In a friend's phrasing, "The universe amplifies exactly what you focus your attention on. What you carry in your thoughts and feelings increases in your life."
This law, while true, is also comparatively weak. Just thinking about health and feeling positive about it for ten minutes will help, but if you actively infuse this focus with Magick – if you intend it to become reality – it will help a lot more.
Then reason I bring this up at all is mainly a negative one – if you do ten minutes of Magick for health every day, but otherwise constantly worry about sickness, you'll be working against yourself. That's why it's good to keep the Law of Attraction in mind and spend as little time as possible on negative thoughts and feelings. This sounds easier said than done, but the practices in the next part inherently move your thoughts and emotions in the right direction.

The DKMU Vault / A Poem by Frater Alysyrose
« on: December 06, 2019, 02:18:13 am »
From Facebook, October 31, 2017, no title

The veil is thinnest
 The candles bright
 Reality dimmest
 Proclaim our might
 The Oistars open
 Reveal their pearls
 And upon this mark
 We unite the worlds

General Occultism / The Arjil Archive
« on: December 06, 2019, 12:04:10 am »
So, the Internet is fleeting and I trust Seisatsu, our current Admin and Webhost <3 much more than the rest . For this reason, I want to collect all of Arjil's writing on Magick as "Direct Manipulation" in one place – it's pretty much my favourite material on practical magick.

[February 6, 2013]

Just. Effing. Magick.

This is a letter I wrote about my thoughts on the practice of magick- I mostly keep all this to myself for fear of becoming a pariah, but upon reflection, I don’t care.  These are things I know, they are my experience, so I shall share them:
     There is a current within the occult that is, for the most part, alternately ignored, abused, and reviled. And frankly, I’m not even sure I know how to talk about it without sounding like a lunatic.
 So, you know all the worst of the internet trolls: The high archmage muckity mucks, the dragonkin elven fox furries, the astral goddess wielders of excalibur, the people who think they’re a faerie queen, the demon overlords, the people who took D&D and faerie tales Way too seriously?
Yeah, whole lot of facepalm going on there-
However, if you can get past the bullshit, all these people share the same Impetus, they’re all looking for the same thing- these loudest voices,  typically being unstable and completely void of social skills and Utterly lost in their own personal mythology, have cast an indelible stain on anything that even resembles what they were looking for.
I know this, because I share that same Impetus.
 I get it.
 I have just put forth the effort to not be a dumbass about it most of the time.
I think a lot of people, if not most of us began with that Impetus, but upon finding the occult community the well adjusted among us decide “well, obviously, since everybody else thinks that’s just childish nonsense, it must be”, and let the idea go.
Or they still harbor that Impetus, but have sense enough to keep their mouth shut about it.
 Or they choose one of the systems, like the Fluffy Pagan Brigade, who pretend they know all about it and make it all safe and happy.
 Or they turn from it with a sense of betrayal and decide there’s no such thing as Magick in that sense, and it’s all psychological tricks and despise everyone who dares to believe in anything that can’t be measured with a ruler.
So what’s the point of this?
I have learned to use the language of the modern occult systems with it’s paradigms, energies, elements, programs, nexions, wave functions, etc. etc. but that’s not really what I do.
I just use Magick-
 Like what people believe in when they’re kids.
 The whole story doesn’t really matter, but somewhere along the way I decided
A) everything I’ve discovered about the occult is boring, fluffy, unimaginative, doesn’t line up with what I feel in my heart to be true, and really doesn’t seem very magickal at all.
B) Somebody had to be the first one to raise up off their hairy knuckles and decide they could use magick.
and C) children all over the world play really weird imagination games, and naturally use bizarre “little kid magick” all the time- until it gets beaten out of them sometime around junior high.
I’m sure this is technically faulty logic, but bear with me-
Every other young animal in the world (well, mammals and some birds at least) instinctively plays at the skills they will need later in life. I’ll spare you the list, but think about it for a second, and they Do.
So why the prevalence of Human children wandering around in imaginary realities, doing weird ass little kid magick (cootie shots, chants, bizzarre rituals to keep the closet monster at bay, jinx breaking, holding your breath so the thunder doesn’t get you, etc.
 Not to mention a stick can be at will, a sword, a gun, a wand, an icky poostick of doom, whatever)-  all these things that, in the normal adult world really seem to serve no practical function of survival at all?
Right or wrong, logical fallacy or not, I wondered what would happen if you took the same spiritual force, energy, gnosis, whatthefuckever, that people use in their magickal work, and applied it with the same level of dedication to these seemingly pointless beliefs and skills practiced by children with a critical eye to the most widely held occult theories, and upscaled to functional adult experience.
Apart from “it worked”, I don’t know what else to say about it.
I think I found the Impetus that keeps the trolls lurking, and keeps that suspicion in the backs of people’s minds that says the world of the occult, the magick should be more like we thought it would be when we were kids.
There was more Fail and more Silly than I care to contemplate, and we spent an unseemly amount of time running around in the woods Pretending (we knew we were pretending, but we had to go back before we could go forward).
 What I *seem* to have discovered, is kind of… Like, a multilayered reality in which we all exist that all has some measure of “Real” to it for a subjective value of “Real”,
 a means to influence and change that reality seemingly on the Quantum level,
 and a semi-sentient Force, perhaps, that is not a god (though it might be a function of GOD, or the IS if you take my meaning) That Feels like what the idea of magick felt like so long ago.
It’s got the same feel as every faerie tale, fantasy book, movie, or song that inspires people towards magick, the ones that you experience that make you say “Yes!” and make you Wish that the world wasn’t so fucking mundane.
Not energy work, not systemic entropy, not elements, not intercessional deity, or psychology, not tricks, not overblown philosophy, and not religion.
Just. Fucking. Magick.
It has been my experience that all the real, recordable results regardless of paradigm, and the people who are validly successful, tap into this “current in reality” through whatever means they happen to use.
How does it work?- it’s Magick.
How do you do it- use your imagination, it’s Magick.
You can’t do that- why not? its fucking Magick…
I postulate, ladies and gentlemen, that this is indeed the root of the occult. It is what all the systems, and dogmas, and even the “gone off the deep end” idiots have been attempting to explain, and in the attempt, just like the words of every prophet ever- they took something really simple, and made it so complex you can hardly find the point anymore.
Every system, every paradigm, every philosophy of the occult I have ever studied or tried- every single one has, in the end, proven pointlessly unwieldy.
 Yes they all work. All of them. Any of them. Make some shit up, and it works-
Because it’s Magick.
Is it easy to figure out how to use it?
Is it really easy to get sidetracked, or fall off into the bullshit pile?
Tools and tricks and mental aids can be helpful, certainly, but in the end, in my opinion, it is just plain Magick at the heart of the matter.
After my initial posting of the above essay, someone asked me to clarify what, exactly, I meant by “little kid magick” so here it is:
Ok, so a whole lot of the things children Pretend, play at, are strange imagination games.
 As you know (or will quickly discover as you study) “visualization” is the most common, across the board, tool of using magick.
 Kids are born doing this, and they do it better than all the adults who have all sorts of hard techniques to learn to do it effectively.  Kids can change the whole of their personal reality in the blink of an eye- it doesn’t Do anything most of the time, because they’re kids.
Remember when you were playing, you could Be Superman, and it didn’t matter whatsoever that you were running around a playground- You were Superman?
 Or the couch could Be a spaceship?
 Or a pile of old bushes would Be a dragon?
 And it was Easy.
So here’s the short version of how to apply this to magick-
Remember how you could Be Superman?
 Now, Be a Wizard.   Pretend.
 On the surface, this seems silly, but bear with me- you have to let go of the silly. Kids don’t feel silly when they’re Superman, they’re too busy Being Superman, flying around and shooting lazerbeams out of their eyes.
You know how you can recall the feeling of a physical sensation or an Emotion?  Like the feel of wind, or drinking something cold, or stubbing your toe, or excitement- and you can, if you concentrate, Feel it?
So what you do, Pretending to be a Wizard, just imagine what *Your* magick Feels like, what it would look like blasting out as a spell- Kids don’t worry about How it will work, they just do it, usually with some impressive whooshing sound effect.
Or maybe your magick is quiet and creeps like tendrils of smoke, or flows like water.
Summon the vision, and more importantly, summon the Feeling, and Pretend like a kid that you’re casting your spell, and like a kid, Believe it.
It took me a while, some years, to become truly effective at this. Just as it takes a while to become effective at any paradigm of magick. Apart from a certain (rather large) level of creative versatility, immediacy, and freedom, it’s no stronger, better, nor more effective than any other paradigm.
 However, this style does allow for a Lot more practice.
In many systems you have to wait around for the right phase of the moon, or star alignment, or you have to build a ritual, or be in a special place, or evoke some god or spirit, or create a servitor, or a sigil, or whatever.  Many people, especially among the pagan and ceremonial groups cast maybe one spell a week if they’re particularly active- certainly some do more, but, I’m talking about average practitioner.
I throw like 20 a day.
Who’s going to be better at magick?
So long as you have the juice left to throw a spell you can do it (you will discover this method will wear you the hell out when it works.)  I have also found that in using your Own magick, rather than relying on some spirit or non sentient “energy” do it for you, you don’t have to worry as much about the unintended consequences that everybody always gives dire warnings about.
 It’s a part of you. It won’t manifest in ways that You are not ok with-
 not to say that you can’t miss, or that cause and effect won’t whack you in the face like stepping on a rake hidden in the grass, but it won’t off your grandmother because you cast a nonspecific money spell- which is one of the favorite examples. 
One other little tidbit- You know how most systems place emphasis on visualizing the end result in exhaustive detail? Seeing your will after it has come to fruition?
Screw that. It’s backwards.
Focus instead on summoning up your Magick and it going out there to do your will.
 Certainly- Know what you want, use ritual tools like a sigil or a written out spell if you need something complex and specific.
 But the important bit- the Really important bit to doing magick is the Doing of the Magick.
Utilize your imagination on the Front end of spellcasting, not the Back end. Trust the Magick to find the path of least resistance through reality from where you’re standing, rather than hurling it into some as yet non-existent possible future and hoping it finds you again.  That, in my opinion and experience, is putting the cart before the horse.  Not that it doesn’t work, especially from a particular point of view, but when I began using this mind set, my effectiveness increased dramatically. 
All paradigms have something to offer: ideas, tricks of the trade, good knowledge. Listen to everybody- it all builds your vision of the whole.
 But this technique of coming at it from the little kid mind set makes it all a lot easier-
 they don’t have to fight themselves to make magick. 
Neither do we.
There are people of course, who’s mental landscape is quite different, and as such this method doesn’t work for everyone.  Many need a distinct process, a more rigid practice, a distinct trail to follow, or who’s main mental process is something other than visual based imagination.
 What I think people of such mind should take from this idea is license to find their own form of creative magickal expression, to feel free to explore the way their mind Does work- to use their natural inclinations in their magickal practice to their advantage.
 Because it’s Magick, it doesn’t matter What you do, so long as you Do Something to make it work.
 I’ve struggled for years to try to figure out how to convey to people how to find  Their Way, as I found My Way. That’s the truly important bit, I think- To ponder how You would make the magick work.
 If it was your ideal world- What would You do?
 When you think about magick, how do you Wish the process worked?
Do That.
Keep at it till it works.
And it will.

General Occultism / On Satanism
« on: June 11, 2019, 04:46:15 am »
Hi everyone :)
Recently I've stumbled over the book " An Exorcist Explains the Demonic: the Antics of Satan and His Army of Fallen Angels", written by a vatican exorcist. In a quote, I found the best description of Satanism I've ever seen so far:
"What is the [objective of Satanists]? Satanists wish to develop [their] depraved form of devotion through a diffusion of the theory and practice of three basic principles: you can do all that you wish, no one has the right to command you, and you are the god of yourself. The first principle intends to confer full liberty to the adherent on everything he wishes to do, without limits. The second is the release from the principle of authority, that is, from any obligation to obey parents, the Church, the state, and whoever places restrictions in the name of the common good. The third denies all the truth that comes directly from God: paradise, the inferno, purgatory, judgment, the Ten Commandments, the precepts of the Church, Mary, and so forth."
I find this amazing – much clearer and purer than LaVey. 

In an argument on that blog, I also wrote my own views on Satanism, which I want to keep around:
"It is possible to hold long-term, well-considered desires which are contrary to your doctrine and thus -- on your view -- sinful. One can for example be a proud thief. You would have the thief reject his desire and instead choose to live according to Catholic desires -- "What would Jesus do?" However, if one's long-term well-considered desire are not in harmony with "Jesus' desires", I would say that one literally *cannot live* according to Jesus. If one tries, one has given up one's *own* life to become an imitation of Jesus. Contrary to Catholicism, one does not Gain Life Eternal, but rather *looses life* completely!

Thus, even on Catholicism being true, Hell seems *preferable* because then I at least get to *live* (properly understood as living *my way*) for *a while* as opposed to *not at all* by following Jesus instead of myself. The harshness of this position surprises even me :)

Now, of course you can directly deny my point -- "God being Truth and Goodness, being an imitation of Jesus just *is* the best way to live one's life". And what can I say to you? Take Satan as a role model! He chose damnation because that gives him at least a *bit* of *his own life*. He'd rather *die* his way *later*, than live someone else's way, since the latter option means he'd never *actually* live *at all*. Have you no Pride?"
This to me is the foundation of Finding one's True Will – the realisation that one cannot follow anything but oneself and live. From here begins the search for one's true self, for what it is that you really wish. And then you just do it and whever else is necessary to keep you going. To me, that's really all there's to it, while Crowley and LaVey go out of their way to soften up this core (see e.g. ).

Announcements / Forum Revival 2018!
« on: October 24, 2018, 02:42:02 am »
Just for the record  ;D

Recently, Chovexano stepped down as Forum Admin, and Seisatsu took his place. All the data was migrated to his servers and he's now the new admin. All of this was said on FB, but I want to have it here as well ;) .

Thanks a lot to both for all the work you did and do for the DKMU  :) 8)

The DKMU Vault / Chelseanacht 2018 with a thousand cranes
« on: July 10, 2018, 12:54:12 am »
Hi everyone :)

Seisatsu suggested a project for this year's Chelseanacht. Here is the proposal:

"Chelseanacht Project
 Thousand Origami Cranes
 In which we construct "Senbazuru", the ancient Japanese magickal wish granting device, with a DKMU twist.
 "Thousand Origami Cranes (千羽鶴 Senbazuru) is a group of one thousand origami paper cranes (折鶴 orizuru) held together by strings. An ancient Japanese legend promises that anyone who folds a thousand origami cranes will be granted a wish by the gods." - Wikipedia
 This project will borrow some ancient Japanese magick, and combine it with the versatile LS network, to create a one-shot collaborative wish granting device which will be loaded with DKMU's mission statement.
 The work of folding one thousand origami cranes will be divided between the volunteers. All cranes must be folded by the 17th. Each crane should have the Linking Sigil marked on the inner side of the paper, so it is folded into the crane. While folding each crane, imbue it with your intent and wish for a world filled with magick and belief in magick, and the rending of the veil. The Linking Sigil will be our string, tying all of the thousand cranes together to form the mythical ancient Japanese wish granting device, the Senbazuru.
 I will design the ritual for the 17th in the coming days. The ritual will be to "fire off" the Senbazuru. After each volunteer performs the ritual with their cranes, the cranes will be placed around the volunteers' neighborhoods to spread any residual energy (and the LS) over a wide area.
 If you would like to volunteer, please post below. Based on the number of volunteers in the next few days, I will throw out a number for how many cranes we must each fold. Late volunteers should fold the same number of cranes, so we have extras in case anyone falls behind."

see for more info on the tradition.

I know that there are some folks who don't read FB at all, so I put it here.

Here's how to make a crane :)

Anyone up to join?

Hi everyone!

I had a debate with some Catholics and want to share an idea I had there -- though it is probably not original  ;D Here comes:

"It is possible to hold long-term, well-considered desires which are contrary to your doctrine and thus -- on your view -- sinful. One can for example be a proud thief. You would have the thief reject his desire and instead choose to live according to Catholic desires -- "What would Jesus do?" However, if one's long-term well-considered desire are not in harmony with "Jesus' desires", I would say that one literally *cannot live* according to Jesus. If one tries, one has given up one's *own* life to become an imitation of Jesus. Contrary to Catholicism, one does not Gain Life Eternal, but rather *looses life* completely!

Thus, even on Catholicism being true, Hell seems *preferable* because then I at least get to *live* (properly understood as living *my way*) for *a while* as opposed to *not at all* by following Jesus instead of myself. The harshness of this position surprises even me :)

Now, of course you can directly deny my point -- "God being Truth and Goodness, being an imitation of Jesus just *is* the best way to live one's life". And what can I say to you? Take Satan as a role model! He chose damnation because that gives him at least a *bit* of *his own life*. He'd rather *die* his way *later*, than live someone else's way, since the latter option means he'd never *actually* live *at all*. Have you no Pride?"
Now, this is just as true for any other source of desires except for one's own -- the desires of an Ideology, a concrete politician, Leftism, the White race, Humanity... It really doesn't matter. On this view, you either Live Your Way, or you do not live.

What do you think?

General Occultism / AhavahAinSoph on Finding one's True Will
« on: December 20, 2017, 02:18:24 am »
Hi everyone :)

Here's a conversation I had with AhavahAinSoph on the IRC that I really find worth keeping. About how to actually go about finding that True Will that everyone talks about  ;D

09:25    A.    I finally understand.. I finally understand strength.
09:25    A.    I finally understand the lesson of geburah
09:26    M.    Oh! Congratulations!
09:26    MuadDib    I doubt it ahavah, you will look at it again later and discover many more lessons :P
09:26    A.    I was looking at my family, at my mother and my granfathers
09:27    A.    And all of them hedged their bets, settled. The weight of the world broke them.
09:27    A.    My grandfathers had higher iqs than me, my family begins life with incredible potential
09:28    A.    And they sidetrack it, because of this feeling of responsibility
09:28    A.    Of "Possibility"
09:28    A.    Of "Plausibility"
09:29    A.    All of them broke when they decided they had to dream inside the world.
09:29    A.    But it's like crowley said
09:29    jimlad    it's like to be said.
09:30    A.    "Do what you Will, then do nothing else"
09:30    A.    There is no settlement
09:30    A.    There is no other choice. You must be you
09:30    A.    No matter the pressures you face
09:30    A.    No matter the hardships
09:30    A.    No matter what the world throws at you
09:30    A.    And how many people tell you how dangerous it is
09:31    MuadDib    I was reading that kind of backwards and was about to accuse you of becoming a thelemite until I realized you were actually quoting crowley
09:31    A.    Tipharet is the Will, Guburah is sharpening that Will into steel. The ironclad will.
09:32    M.    Ah, that is relevant to a question I ponder :) Is The Will,, is the "You" that "you must be" a *choice* or a *discovery*?
09:35    A.    It is a discovery
09:35    A.    What you do with it is a choice
09:35    A.    But it must be YOUR choice
09:35    A.    An expression of your heart
09:36    A.    Not of the world and its circumstances
09:36    A.    When you understand who you are
09:36    A.    You must focus on it like the mindfulness you were just asking about
09:36    A.    Until it fills everything
09:37    A.    Until it consumes your body, until it eats who you were. Until it burns off all of the impurity.
09:37    A.    This is the reddening.
09:38    M.    But isn't it sad that everyone is to have a *set purpose* already determined, and and only either chose to follow it or be mistaken?
09:38    A.    No, you can't actually violate your true will, your heart
09:39    A.    And also, I don't see how it would be sad
09:39    A.    You make it, it is an expression of your whole soul.
09:39    A.    The total of yourself throughout time
09:39    A.    It's the meta determinism we were talking about the other day, when you coined that phrase
09:40    A.    We create our soul, we create god, and we create what we are determined to do every day
09:40    M.    waitwait. Apparently people can violate their true will -- this is exactly what you were sayung -- "they sidetrack it"
09:40    A.    It's not a perfect expression. It's concealled
09:40    A.    It's not a violation, it's a lens, a limit.
09:40    M.    ah, that makes more sense
09:41    A.    My mother for instance
09:41    M.    But clearly, Crowley's  "Do what you Will, then do nothing else" means that this is what you *should* do, it is also something you *can* do, but is clearly *not
09:41    A.    I figured out her true will, kind of.
09:41    M.     something you *automatically do
09:41    A.    It's about conscious awareness
09:41    A.    Not about whether or not you can fail.
09:42    A.    Or choose not to do the thing
09:42    A.    "Do what thou wilt, then do nothing else" is an expression of cus.
09:42    A.    focus*
09:42    A.    "Do what thou wilt" is an expression of understanding
09:42    M.    Yes, but my question is focus on what?
09:42    A.    Of knowledge, and action
09:42    A.    On who you are.
09:43    A.    What you are made of.
09:43    A.    The discovery of the hga, and the understanding of "True Will" and the idea of the "Ruach" is all the same idea, and it is the root of yourself
09:44    A.    The point that all other things you may do come from
09:44    A.    Understand the root. Grab the sword by the hilt.
09:44    A.    Then wield it
09:46    A.    "Who you are" and "Why" are considerations that should be the basis of your decision making process constantly and at all times once you figure out what the answers are.
09:48    M.    I totalla agree with you on the Constant Focus, Do nothing else etc etc. parts. Absolutely. My doubt lies solely with the *discovery*
09:48    A.    First you discover who you are, you accomplish the great work, understanding the root of your being. You make the stone, you dig through all the base materia, burn it, wash it, dry it, let it ferment.
09:49    M.    In my view, the True Will has to be a *choice* -- you pick something you want to do with this life, and then you throw all your strength at it.
09:49    A.    No.
09:49    A.    It is much deeper than a choice
09:49    A.    It is an unconscious root, where all the consciousness stems from
09:49    M.    In the discovery-view I always run into walls :D What if I *understand* falsely? What is I don't llike what I find etc.
09:49    A.    Any choice you can make follows it.
09:50    A.    It isn't something you won't like, because that would violate the very idea of it.
09:50    A.    You can't understand falsely. There will be many times that you think you know, that's what Hod is, the knowing that is incomplete
09:50    A.    But you will not misunderstand.
09:51    A.    When it clicks, it will click utterly.
09:51    A.    When you're there, you will know.
09:51    A.    It will all suddenly make sense
09:51    A.    You, the world, everything
09:52    A.    I've compared it before to "Seeing the sunrise for the first time when living in a world of darkness"
09:52    A.    Everything that was hazy before
09:52    jimlad    was that you don't when you've had before. 3 him, always coming.
09:52    A.    suddenly snaps into sharp focus
09:52    A.    And it's so much more beautiful than the shadowy images made it appear to be.
09:53    A.    You have to remember that this is what MAKES your ego
09:53    A.    It's what assembles it
09:54    A.    You can't have a dislike of it, because it MAKES your choices and your preferences
09:54    A.    All of them depend on it
09:54    A.    And are made because of it
09:54    A.    Just unconsciously.
09:54    jimlad    i'm just gonna do whatever he says proves nicolas cage is a long winged oceanic bird.
09:56    M.    If I take that perspective I am left undecided -- my mind wants to do different, exclusive things
09:56    A.    Chase one decision down the rabbit hole
09:57    A.    Take one choice in your life
09:57    A.    And ask yourself a question: "Why"
09:57    jimlad    i ask you a question?
09:57    A.    Then ask why to the answer
09:57    A.    Then again
09:57    A.    And again, til you cant
09:57    A.    Then pick another thread
09:57    A.    And untie it
09:57    A.    Why
09:57    A.    Why
09:57    A.    Why
09:57    A.    Keep going, take a third thing
09:57    A.    Unravel it too
09:57    A.    Why
09:57    A.    Why
09:57    A.    Why
09:57    A.    Why
09:57    A.    Why
09:57    A.    Keep going
09:57    A.    Until you hit the root
09:58    A.    Be honest with yourself
09:58    A.    And don't stop
09:58    A.    You won't hit the root til your entire world is rocked from the understanding
09:58    A.    So keep
09:58    A.    Going
09:59    A.    One thread after another
09:59    A.    And eventually you'll be able to see all the threads, and how they connect
09:59    A.    Then you'll find where they all come from
09:59    A.    THAT is what you're looking for
09:59    A.    The key to not getting caught in false knowledge here is to not stop somewhere arbitrary
09:59    A.    Relentlessly chase it down
10:00    A.    Until you can't chase anymore, and keep going
10:00    A.    Rip yourself apart to find the gold in the center if you have to. Let nothing stop you
10:00    A.    Not you, nor the world, nor anything else
10:00    A.    Find
10:00    A.    The
10:00    A.    Gold
10:00    A.    Why
10:00    A.    Why
10:00    A.    Why
10:00    A.    Why
10:01    A.    It's worth EVERY BIT of the hardship, of the rawness, of the pain.
10:01    jimlad    i don't feel manic, but when it comes off as nonsense but if you will find the zohar if it's worth.
10:01    A.    It's in everything you do
10:01    A.    And everything you do is an expression of it
10:01    A.    So just pick a thread
10:01    A.    And start untying
10:01    A.    And don't stop
10:02    A.    Until you have the answer t the question "Who am I"
10:02    A.    And THAT is where the source of the mage's power lies.
10:03    M.    You're making very good points (you should make a forum post ;) ) -- But I cannot truly follow. When I ask your Why I quickly come to the answer "Because I'll enjoy it" and then that's it :D
10:03    A.    Why will you enjoy it.
10:03    A.    What do you enjoy about it?
10:03    M.    Or rather "Because I think I'll enjoy it"
10:03    A.    Why?
10:03    A.    That's not a termination point.
10:03    A.    Pick apart your enjoyment
10:04    A.    Dissect it.
10:04    M.    ah, "Because I'm the kind of person who enjoys such an activity"?
10:06    A.    Why, what do you enjoy about it?
10:06    A.    What about it makes you enjoy it
10:06    A.    What does that say about you?
10:06    M.    Ah, that helps :)
11:05   M.   So you keep asking and asking, backtracking from dead ends etc. until something "obviously clicks", yes?
11:05   jimlad   until you have to keep more of that.
11:06   A.   Yeah, and it'll be REALLY OBVIOUS.
11:06   A.   Just keep going though
11:07   A.   Don't worry about "How will I know" because if you have to ask, then you haven't hit root
11:07   A.   All that anticipation is more energy to fuel the fire
11:08   M.   So, the intermediate questions are "Why do i want to do/be that?" and the final question is "What do I really want to do/be?" Or how would _you_ express the question of the True will?
11:09   A.   "Who am I and why"
11:10   M.   Thanks :)
11:11   A.   No worries dude. I want EVERYONE to live their best, and understand themselves so they know what that is

The Assault on Reality / Ultimate Tagline Collection
« on: November 22, 2017, 08:50:23 am »
Hi everyone  :)

Here's a start of something I've been wanting to do for a while. A central place for all the catchphrases, expressions and whatever else that can be used with tagging. The point of the exercise is simple -- whenever one does a tag and has no idea, this will be a place to look  8)

I'll try to find and include everything that is visible anywhere or that could be used in that context. Obviously, I'm very much looking for what you want to add  :) . I'll try to give credit for each line.

The Start is done  ;D I think I'll start sorting by source, maybe we find a way to sort by better categories later. Naturally, this is a Work in Progress and always will be, but I do hope to have all the obvious available sources put into here soon :D [Edit: I think I went through most of the material and copied most of it out. Not everything though -- there should always be something to explore ;) Now it's on us to come up with more.]

The Official Motto of this list is Geri: "Put in the work! :)"

The Ultimate Tagline Collection

DKMU Oistar Guide 2.1 (I think by Kiki)
  • DTTI:HTNF --- Death to the Image - Hail the new Flesh
  • AUTM:IUTW --- And upon this Mark I Unite the Worlds
  • Khaos provides
  • Drink your grape juice, youngins!
  • Beauty. Variety. Conflict.
  • Black trigag > god
  • I am that I am not
  • Welcome to Yourself
  • The Assault on Reality
  • Pull Your Own Trigger!
  • Feast and Fire
  • 156/663
  • The Big Toe [It stands for Big Picture Theory of Everything I believe  ;) ]
  • The Walrus must have oistars!
  • Union for Iconoclastic Freedom Fighters
  • [Draw the Atomosphere  ;D ]
  • You are not Alone
  • Abandon Reality, all ye who enter here
Kiki's "Glamourbombing the Streets"
  • Draw targets outside of a shooting range.
  • He who buys what he does not need steals from HIMSELF. (Swedish proverb)
  • Nothing is true, Everything is permitted
  • Lay out a chalk checker, chess, or tic-tac-toe board. (For Tic... you could also leave chalk so people can play)
  • Magick is the glue that holds the universe together
Kiki's "The Glamourbombing Manual" (This book is a treasure, I'm only copying most lines, but it has much more than just lines!)
  • Lift the Veil
  • Blacklisted we're unstoppable
  • [Leave sheets of bubble wrap in a public place with the following note: 'Anti Stress for Free!']
  • [Tie a tag to a tree that reads “PLEASE send me to the forest.”]
  • Question Reality
  • Count the seconds it takes to stop thinking about this sentence.
  • We aren't free but we sure are cheap...
  • I wish you humans would leave me alone.
  • Be nice to other people; they outnumber you 6 billion to 1.
  • Question authority– and the authorities will question you.
  • Authorised Graffiti Area!
  • Evolve! The Monkeys are catching up!
  • > Place bookmarks in Library or Bookstore books. Possible messages include:
  • Dear Reader, Thank you! Your choice to read a book instead of stare at a screen is greatly appreciated!!
  • Being proud of how many books you’ve read is the surest sign you haven’t read nearly enough.
  • A fine will be charged for wounding the library books.
  • Think outside the book.
  • Read banned books.
[Let me mention here that i <3 Kiki ;D ]
Glamourbomb Thread
  • Disbelieve. Disobey. [From the Field Manual]
  • R.I.P -- The Known [Ringtail]
  • Magick is Real [Everyone]
  • May your words come true, may your magic shine! [Ringtail]
  • Only Nothing is Impossible [Gerie]
  • Follow the White Rabbit [Everyone]
  • The Rabbit Hole shows the way Out
  • Magick is the Art of Doing the Impossible [Frater U.D.]
  • .
  • How Real is Reality [Ahavah Ain Soph]
  • This is War on Submission. (Total. Fucking. War.) [Field Manual]
  • Don't believe everything you think [Less Wrong?]
  • We're All Mad Here [Alice's Adventures]
  • [We're] Friends with Demons!
  • [We're] Here for Magick!
  • HIC SVNT DRACONES (Here be Dragons)
  • .
  • Cross The Bridge (to Yourself)
  • Only dead fish always swim with the current
  • There's a Hole in Consensus Reality (because it's a Lie!)
  • Pass through the LSDoor [Someone who wants to be credited as Ivanka Trump ;D on FB wrote "The Ellis Gate, also known as the LSDoor"]
  • .

General Occultism / If I were to introduce someone into the Occult...
« on: October 27, 2017, 04:04:36 am »
Hi everyone :)

Recently I read this thread on RuneSoup
It's about making a list of books that you would give to someone as introduction to some specific type of magick. I immediately though, "But wait, I want to include Websites and such!" So I decided to go ahead and create my own list (with Blackjack and... Blogposts!  ;) ).

I'd love to hear what ressources you have given or would give to someone who is curious and wants to learn.

Here's my list. I'll try to keep the amount of text to read to a minimum.

1. As an introduction, I'd shamelesly recommend this post by myself

2. Next, these two post by some very unusual Satanists -- These explain the Energy-approach to Magick quite well

3. Then, we need some meditation. The very short chapters on "Exclusive Concentration " and "Inclusive Awareness" in Alan Chapman's "The Camel Rides Again" provide the best information on meditation that I know. The book can be found for free on the Internet Archive:
 I'd also recomment it in general.

4. And lastly, I'd just add more details on actual Magick with the classical Arjil-Texts:

I think, with this one can start actually doing the Thing and getting experience and practice. In my "Magick is more like weightlifting than like rocket engineering"-view, practice is actually more important. The theory is just there to get on on the path -- or rather to tell one, that there is an actual path which can be taken.

Edit: Next I'd probably introduce them to the DKMU and Ellis, so they can receive help from the LS-network in their magick and also help the network grow :) I think this post from DBL , Kiki's awesome Oistar guide and a thread about the LS would do that well.

The DKMU Vault / An Oistar's Primer -- Poem by PsyVirion
« on: October 25, 2017, 07:11:05 am »
Doktor Hellfire recently posted these verses and illustration in the Group. I'm just saving it to here, with permission.

An Oistar's Primer

 "D" is for Domus, home for our heart.
 "K" is for Kaotica,  the place where we start.
 "M" is for Marauder, so proud and so fierce.
 "U" is for Underground, where the Veils we do pierce.

If that isn't awesome, I don't know what is! Thanks a lot  :)

Chaos Magic & Beyond / The Second Spirit -- Enhancing Willpower
« on: October 10, 2017, 05:49:41 am »
Hi everyone  :)

Somehow I feel that it is time to share another of my Servitors with you.

He is the Second Spirit. His intent is roughly "To ensure that I have Great Willpower and Self-Discipline". Here is his sigil -- this interpretation was created by Kindra Tia Haugen -- thanks again :)

I think Willpower is, just like Cheerfulness, a topic common enough that folks might benefit from this. And I also think that the effectiveness of such Magick will increase, if more people use it. So there :)

The Spirit looks to me somwhat like an Ancestor Ghost from TESIII Morrowind but in faded Gold, not grey, with gusts of golden light around him. He also wears his Sigil as a mask on his face, but since it's all transparent, the skull is still visible.

The first part of the idea is that that this will boost one's general willpower. Just the ability to pull though on one's plans, get up and do stuff etc. That is a kind of background-effect. And the second part is, when I actually have a hard time to get myself to do something just now, visualising that sigil as a mask over my face and the Spirit telling me, in a deep voice, to get on with it, helps quite a bit ;)  The point is that he wants you to get ahead with what you really want -- to push you to become the version of yourself, that you really want to be.

That should be enough to get started working with him, in whichever way you do it. I'll add a short part from my Reflections-tread:
"> Doing Magick with that focus. "intentionally infusing ones Will with magick" -- "Summon the vision, and more importantly, summon the Feeling, and Pretend like a kid that you’re casting your spell, and like a kid, Believe it.".
a.) Influence your life directly. In short, gather Energy, then "program" it with your intent (as an affirmation in the present tense), then activate it. (on programming: "the more realistic your visualizations are and the more astral senses you use, the more effective the working will be, and infuse it with as much energy as you can, the more brilliant, the better, using your visualization. Feel happy emotions."*)
b.) Power your servitors with it ("Throughout the centuries, witches kept servitors, some of these relationships have even spanned lifetimes. This is achieved by calling the servitor by the name given to it, and breathing more light energy into it, reaffirming its mission")"  ( )

A bit of history, for those who care. I don't remember a lot, unfortunately. Somewhen a few years ago, maybe only 2 or 3, I decided that I need a sigil for willpower and came up with the above, just rotated slighty. I saw it as the Sun beaming down sunrays. Then a few months later, I had an uncalled visualisation of a kind of ghost next to my bed. Not a strong hallucination or so, just like I would visualise with open eyes an apple on a table that isn't actually there. But in this case, I didn't try to visualise a ghost (though I do think that I saw a cool ghost-picture some time before that.).. But it was kind of non-threatening.  So I tried to ask it what it is, and tried to think what could be going on, and then, I don't remember how, it ended up taking that sigil as a mask and kind of becoming a Servitor for that Sigil. Don't know what you make of this -- maybe some kind of unconscious evocation while sleeping that caused this to happen :) Either way that has been a while ago and it is now an established part of my life. I'm regularly powering it up in roughly the way mentioned above. And my willpower is improving too :)

Later, I charged it with this little ritual:

Hopefully, this will be useful to someone :)
Sidenote: Though there is no LS included, he considers himself part of the LS-Network :)

Edit: I forgot to mention, he is not Second because of any chronological order, but because he is somewhat concerned with Second Order Desires, i.e. what you wish to wish . It's a concept i I learned in Philosophy, see here for a short explanation

Edit 2: I never felt the urge to share this one before... and don't have an urge to share the others. But he today somewhat demanded to become public. That's quite interesting in itself... Maybe someone needs something like that just now and that thought propagates through the LS-network? In any case I'm kind of nervous about it, as if it was a performance on stage :D but feel that this should help :)

The DKMU Vault / Diovivente's Good-bye post
« on: June 21, 2017, 01:39:26 am »
Hi folks. Frater Diovivente says goodbye to Facebook and posted an interesting analsysis about the state of the DKMU. Since folks asked him to save the post, I'll save it for him. If he's not okay with that, he can tell me here or in IRC and I'll delete it. He has said that he's active on the forum. [Edit: He's okay with me posting it here  :) ]

"[Someone] here, Gonna talk about a few things before I leave facebook for good this time. used to be that new members got flamed as a rite of passage in dkmu, "We take our work seriously but not ourselves"- [Sheosyrath]  People would get flamed in the irc to see if they would stick around. "Shucking Oistars to find some pearls"- [Chovexano] But at some point either we let in too many people, or too many members became jaded with a really effective process to find people who really wanted to be in the current. And slowly after a while shit got nastier. So many people talk about it in PM and IRC. "God why are all these kids into Ellis worship, what the hell are they doing with the Godforms." And while we can never really judge people by appearance its clear that a lot of people are image based magicians. That what they perpetuate is just as if not more important to their actual work.   
      Death to the Image hail the new flesh was a fucking war cry, for me it became a rite of shamanic birth and death. But somewhere along the lines, enough people declared the current dead and became jaded enough to let insubstantia into the group. Now we have oistars trying to label and define the current, using it as an image itself. People who only topically mimic other godforms experiences instead of really taking a look into it. And don't tell me I am wrong and play devil's advocate a shit ton of you feel the same way and have even confided it in me through private message.
       Last time diovivente was a thing people got into it, it was exciting and annoying but mostly obvious fun. The fact that people now are having a hard time seeing the parody is really sad. This account is being ran exactly the same way it was last time because I ran it. We got too many people invading occult spaces, infecting it with their jaded outlooks, their need to be self important. their reliance on self image. Facebook is a blue dopamine pushing petri dish for memetic parasites. IMAGE WORSHIP AT ITS HIGHEST.
 So while you guys are sitting there thinking of arguments to tear down what I am saying just save it. I've said it time and time again over the past several years, The Current Never Dies as long as it lives in the mind of one. But at what point did we allow such large amounts of toxicity in ourselves and around us? If any of these statements don't apply to you then try to avoid the knee jerk response and really think about what I am saying. Everything has gone up and down but mostly down since Occupy. Why are we so politically obsessed now, why are so many marauders image based who weren't before, why is there literally a theme with allowing oistars, in the sense of not challenging them with flame and reason, to become cult like and image based? Where are the flames that  used to mark who would stay and who would go? Why aren't there as many of us as there used to be using the world as our playground?
 It could be a number of things, but the fact of the matter is things will be as they are and will only get worse until something changes in each of us that are feeling the weight of that nastiness in the world. MAGICK IS REAL. YOU ARE A MAGICIAN. DEATH TO THE IMAGE HAIL THE NEW FLESH.
 I'm leaving facebook for good. Since I started on this white light kick several parasitic personality types have tried to invade my personal life, because I take hiatus so often I get to see the memetic parasite at work in facebook image worship more than most of my comrades because I have fresh eyes. I'm no better than anyone in here, I've been through the ringer and back in my pursuit of really real magick and those that know me on a deep level know this as fact. I encourage anyone who feels dissatisfied with themselves or the group to initiate an internal change, to make magick real again. To cast off the reliance on what people perceive you as and liberate yourselves in the highest sense. I'll still be writing more crowley than crowley. I'll still be doing my crazy shake the stick at the sky against monsters ritual on chelsea. But I am done with this toxic, invasive, memetic parasitic commercial machine, this blue dopmamine pumping demon. If anyone gives a shit I'll be in the forums and IRC, you know that place we all used to call home. This post and this account along with my main will be terminated after 24 hours.
 [Someone] Out..."

My personal highlights:
> "The Current Never Dies as long as it lives in the mind of one." -- I try not to worry about "The DKMU" as some external, and instead to think about how I can contribute, how I can make something good.
> "Why are we so politically obsessed now, why are so many marauders image based who weren't before" -- we get distracted by the thetre of politics, which have much less actual influence over our lives than we attribute to it. What is more significant for you personally, for your well-being: the difference between Trump or Clinton -- or the difference between eating well and sleeping enough or not? Let alone your personal magic... 

Khaos provides (if we're focussed  8) )!

Edit: In case the comment thread gets deleted, I'll create a backup of my response, because I think these thoughts will remain relevant to me for a while:
"In the game of Go, I try to learn a simple technique: Before every move, ask yourself "Is this a mistake? How many points does it earn?" -- because one is inclined to play moves that "make sense" locally, that feel good, but are actually inconsequential to winning the game and that give the initiative away.

I'll try to also apply this to the rest of my life -- Before each train of thoughts, before each argument, before each post -- does this help fulfiling my actual long-term desires? Or is it just distraction? On the DKMU, I'll try ask myself if what I post really brings forward the AoR or magic in general, or if it is just distraction, virtue-signalling ("I hate Trump too"-signalling ) etc.

This essay might be relevant:

"What positive future events does this action cause?" -- if inconsequential, like another post about politics, don't do it :) "

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