Author Topic: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project  (Read 8019 times)

Moon1ight

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Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« on: February 27, 2016, 02:29:30 pm »
Hi everyone,

we probably all agree that it would be good if more people used Magick. However, we are probably also rather tired of trying to convince those sceptics. This project is not about that. Rather, let's make them convince themselves (if this text seems to long to read, jump down to Tl;Dr  ;)  )

My idea is simple -- I want to create a free and public guide which gives a few (2-3) methods to try out. These should be simple and accessible, obviously. They do not have to cause massive effects -- their only purpose it to ensure that an open-minded person who honestly tries them will realise that magic is in fact real, that there is something here worth trying.

I already have a lot of this thought out and would do it on my own (as good as I can), if I need to. However, I really want to ask for your input (obviously I will give credit if you wish). As for distribution, I think I will create a few printed versions and put them in some interesting places. But mainly I will create a public document e.g. in Scribd and spread the link to that. I'll print stickers and cards with it combined with  interesting phrases etc. -- all the usual glitterbombing methods (I'll also obviously include the LS in there somewhere  8)  ) .

I want to make this as short as possible, since people are averse to long texts. I'd just write a short opening paragraph (see next post for an idea) and then directly give the methods. After each I would include links to further reading, to free books and essays mainly (I think it might be best to avoid all metaphysics -- no mention of khaos, of quantum mechanics, of psychology. I really want to make it short and purely practical. If they have success with that, they will get into the theory themselves, I would include a few links of that nature).

Of course I have some ideas for this already, which I will outline in the next post to  make it less wall-of-text-y  :D

So, which methods you would suggest.to include in this? See the Tl;Dr for my questions to you :) See the next post for my very preliminary ideas.

Tl;Dr If you had an open-minded sceptic about magick, which methods would you suggest him to try? Which "instructions" would you give him, which texts would you send? What are the shortest paths to the conclusion that magick is real?

Khaos provides.


Edit: I also put this on occultforum to reach more folks :) http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39101 
If you like this idea, sharing it would of course help ;)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 04:09:47 pm by Moon1ight »
"The Assault on Reality lives in you.
This is what you were born to do." -Ahavah Ain Soph

"As far as what I think the DKMU is? It's a promise to never stop fighting against mundanity, to always be injecting the weird into the world" - Timothy Buell

"Put in the work! :)" - Geri

Moon1ight

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2016, 03:18:34 pm »
So here are some ideas I already have, which I will edit with time. I'm very open to suggestions and corrections to all of these, especially since English is my third language.

Tl;Dr If you want, you can totally ignore this post and just directly give your own ideas, as asked in the last Tl;Dr :)

Firstly, the opening paragraph. I want to make it short and non-metaphysical. It's supposed to appeal to curiosity and the sceptic's pride of being an independent thinker (whether this pride is justified or not is another matter  ;) ). This is a first draft :) What do you think of it? You can of course also suggest a totally different approach.
________
Is magic real? Find out for yourself!
Some people talk about magic(k) as another means to fulfil one's aims, but most folks are sure that there is no such thing in reality. However, open-minded thinkers draw their own conclusions! Here are some time-proven methods you can personally try out to establish for yourself whether there is anything to this. They won't take ages,  won't cost money and won't ask you to do anything stupid.

Do these and see -- if it works, there are many free resources to get deeper into it and start making your live great for real. If it doesn't, now you know for yourself and don't have to rely on someone's word.
________

Now the methods themselves. I would like to include short guides to 1. Sigils, 2. Law of Attraction-style work and (maybe!) 3. Telepathy.

This is the part where I am the most looking for suggestions. You have other methods which you find better suited? Post them please! You have specific tips or texts for the methods I mentioned? Please post them too!

So, here are my preliminary ideas so far. I will elaborate on them in the next days:

1. Sigils
For this my main source will probably be "Practical Sigil Magic" by Frater U.D. ( http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wisewoman/Practical%20Sigil%20Magic%20-%20Frater%20U.D.%20-%20English.pdf ), from which I would condense the material about the usual pictorial methods.
This is of course the archetypal method of achieving quick results. However, I personally had no really good success with it, contrary to my law of attraction-work. I want to include it anyway, since quite many people are reporting great results with it, it seems good to describe in short form and is quick to put in practice

2. Law of Attraction-style work
For this I will mainly take stuff from R.H. Jarrett's "It Works" (1926)
( http://www.scienceofgettingrich.net/itworks.pdf )

 and Genevieve Behrend's "Your Invisible Power" (1921)
( http://www.missionimprovement1.com/upload/The%20Secret%20-%20YourInvisiblePower[1].pdf )

I will omit the metaphysical assumptions as far as possible and just present the mental actions.
This is the part of magic I have the most experiences and successes with.
 
(Maybe) 3. Telepathy
Here I am the least sure.... My main infos are from https://web.archive.org/web/20110928081946/http://psipog.net/articles.html  -- mainly these two articles https://web.archive.org/web/20111006061113/http://psipog.net/art-telepathy.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20111006045042/http://psipog.net/art-guess-the-fruit.html
I have only very little experience with this material myself :( But the texts seem easy enough to turn into a suitable format. I plan to learn about this in practice in March. Maybe then I will be clearer on it. But I'm also very eager to hear about your experiences and thoughts.

Khaos provides.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 04:07:10 pm by Moon1ight »
"The Assault on Reality lives in you.
This is what you were born to do." -Ahavah Ain Soph

"As far as what I think the DKMU is? It's a promise to never stop fighting against mundanity, to always be injecting the weird into the world" - Timothy Buell

"Put in the work! :)" - Geri

czvni

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2016, 09:05:05 am »
Quote
Is magic real? Find out for yourself!


No worries about your English, it was very understandable. Arguably, yours is probably better written than mine (as a native speaker). :D




I would suggest going with something short and shocking/bold (similar to glitterbombing methods/text). Maybe not outright stating the word magic but implying it? I feel as though as soon as skeptics saw that, they would lose interest.

Speaking from a sort-of oistar standpoint, what drew me to DKMU was the vague message about breaking free from the constraints of reality; it makes a person consider whats real and whats not -- it shakes their belief free from under lock and key.

******

What do you think about maybe having these written on various scraps of paper in the front of the booklet/box? and then going straight into explanations of your methods (vaguely)?:

"Disobey the Order.

Follow the White Rabbit.

We have no Pills; blue and red are Ignorance.

We are the Forgotten, remembering how to Know.

Yes but why?

Yes but how?

This is a Lie and this is the Truth.

You are the Key. Unlock the Door.

Gallileo was Right. America does not Exist.

******


Let me know what you think. :-)

« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 09:29:48 pm by czvni »

Ringtail

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2016, 08:57:04 pm »
Never underestimate the ability of a skeptic to ignore evidence. Whatever goes into this, it has to be our best methods. If it fails the document will work against us. In the sigils section, I would stress the importance of forgetting, since that's the hard part and does make a difference for some people. Have it be part of the instructions to cast right before you go do something really engaging. Something that seems more important to pay attention to than the sigil, like a date, or an exam, or a... bar fight, I don't know.


czvni: It's confusing and it skirts around words that would trigger the disbelief reflex. I like it.


You have no idea how many Jesuses I are.

Moon1ight

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2016, 03:50:32 am »
Thanks for your input so far!

Just as a quick update why I don't do anything: I'm currently moving to another town :) As soon as I finally settle in I will start working on this.

Looking forward to further ideas ;)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 05:29:55 am by Moon1ight »
"The Assault on Reality lives in you.
This is what you were born to do." -Ahavah Ain Soph

"As far as what I think the DKMU is? It's a promise to never stop fighting against mundanity, to always be injecting the weird into the world" - Timothy Buell

"Put in the work! :)" - Geri

Moon1ight

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2016, 11:53:08 pm »
An update:

I changed my plans a bit -- decided that I shouldn't write about techniques  I don't know well. Instead it took "It Works", which only has 4 pages and made a "version with critical annotations". In the end, this is the method I use, even if, in my own practice, I modified it quite a lot, added sigilisation etc.

It should be possible to print on on one sheet of paper from two sides, make lots of them, put an LS and something interesting on each to make them stand out and spread it around.

It's already done. I'm just a bit worried about uploading it because of copyright issues. It's from 1926, but it's still sold (for 3$ :D ). It's also findable for free via google, I already posted the link. Can anyone tell me whether it is safe to upload it to my dropbox and share a public link? Or is there some other way? Maybe Kiki can upload it into the scribd-DKMU-folder ? Would that be more legal :D ?

Thanks for your help folks! All feedback and corrections are of course very welcome!

Edit: I think I found a way. This is passworded, so it should be no problem. The password has 4 letters, D ? ? U  ;)  https://www.docdroid.net/PfngBkQ
This should avoid any copyright issues since it is not shared with the general public :D Still, can anyone tell me whether it's safe to just upload it to a public link ?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 01:28:56 am by Moon1ight »
"The Assault on Reality lives in you.
This is what you were born to do." -Ahavah Ain Soph

"As far as what I think the DKMU is? It's a promise to never stop fighting against mundanity, to always be injecting the weird into the world" - Timothy Buell

"Put in the work! :)" - Geri

Ringtail

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 07:21:13 am »
Thanks. I'll definitely spread this around.


You have no idea how many Jesuses I are.

MoonMoon

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2016, 01:47:41 pm »
I would suggest that a brochure-style format would be the best way to distribute on a wide scale. I've been tossing around ideas in my head for brochure-like layouts. Kind of an inverted throwback to my fundie days when we would spam christian tracts all over the damn place, hah!


As for methods...hmm. I wouldn't spring for the telepathy idea. It's hard enough to get a skeptic to believe much of anything, but telepathy is probably too far of a stretch. Go for things they can document heavily as they go along.


I remember Arjil mentioning at some point the ghost cat experiment. I really liked that idea. Where the person is urged to pretend they have a ghost cat in their house. When after some time the ghost cat actually appears, well... Certainly something like that, with thoughtforms, might be a great idea. I've read about this cool experiment where a group got together, created the idea of a ghost from scratch (complete with a name, appearance, etc.) and then started really focusing in on and trying to contact the ghost at regular intervals -- using things like Ouija and seances, if I recall? I believe they had some pretty mindfucky results with that. I can try to google around and post some links to that stuff. So yeah I'd suggest something like that, personally.


Encouraging note-taking and documentation would be great, also. Appeal to the skeptic's obsession with the scientific method, Occam's Razor and rules of logic. Seriously. Fight fire with fire. That's how I ended up breaking down my own barriers. Kinda go into their own little materialist-model-science world and break it that way. Start with a heavy agreement that yes, the scientific method is good, hey we've done our research and here's how you can too -- that kinda thing.


Best of luck on your idea! Sounds wonderful!
Stay colorful, my friends.

Ringtail

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 08:12:02 pm »
Lol, ghost cat is a thing? I was seeing one of those in my eye corners around Halloween. I tried to encourage it, put out catnip, it became a joke with one of my roommates... but if it was ever there, it moved on. Too bad, I wanted a kitty.


The other way to get through to skeptics is to go the psychological route. Play up the idea of paradigms, manipulating belief and perspective with imagination, but don't give any whiff of the metaphysical. If they're curious enough it will lead them in.


You have no idea how many Jesuses I are.

arjil

Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2016, 04:09:52 pm »
Oh, well then just Make yourself a ghost cat.   
Ghost Cat Experiment:
Pretend you have a ghost cat.
Believe it, interact with it, You have a ghost cat for the next six months.
Where it bakes people's (normal people's) noodle is when it starts doing shit they didn't pretend, or showing up without them thinking about it- which of course can be explained away by psychology.
What Really blows their reality view, is when somebody who didn't know about the thing notices it.
Then they have to re-think some stuff.  Can't explain away somebody noticing your imaginary cat that wasn't there.
Everybody (athiest skeptics, mostly) I've tried to convince to do this has wound up nervously being like "nah, man... nah I'm not doing that".  It's amusing.
But yeah, you can have a ghost cat without all the convincing.  Easy peasy.   


Ringtail

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2016, 04:57:31 pm »
Maybe I'll do that.


You have no idea how many Jesuses I are.

Versling

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2016, 11:10:47 am »
Magic works.


If magic works, so does disenchantment.


If suspension of disbelief leads to manifestation then the cultivation of disbelief will squash manifestation.


The best skeptics are powerful magicians that have perfected the banishment of their own power.



They intend on seeing a mundane world, so a mundane world is what they see.


How would one combat a powerful disenchanter that has no idea they're using magic to make the world conform to their intentions?
I'm a bit of universe bewildered by the fact that a bit of universe can feel bewilderment at all.

Moon1ight

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2016, 04:18:27 am »
First, welcome on the Forum, Versling  :) . You're obviously quite experienced, but I never saw you before somehow.

"How would one combat a powerful disenchanter that has no idea they're using magic to make the world conform to their intentions?"

I guess it's obvious what I think.
1. Come up with the quickest method that they can try to feel a result.
2. Appeal to their sense of rationality, scepticism and curiosity to try it
3. Enjoy more Magic -- Bury the "Known":



I'm of course very much interested in your opinions on that topic in general. And if you have any suggestions for 1., I'm very curious as well.

Khaos provides.
"The Assault on Reality lives in you.
This is what you were born to do." -Ahavah Ain Soph

"As far as what I think the DKMU is? It's a promise to never stop fighting against mundanity, to always be injecting the weird into the world" - Timothy Buell

"Put in the work! :)" - Geri

Versling

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2016, 09:38:35 pm »
Thanks for the welcome!


I found you all on Facebook and decided to check out the forums.


My magical path began from a place of skepticism. [size=78%]I thought that, "believing makes it so," was hogwash.[/size]


That is, until I believed something into existence that should have never been.


I'm a programmer. One day I wrote code that I was 100% confident in. The program worked perfectly until I realized I'd written some of the code wrong. As soon as I doubted the original code, the program stopped working. It was now broken exactly where it should have been broken the entire time.


The ONLY thing that made it functional was my belief that it should be. As soon as that belief faded the manifestation ended.


That shook my world and I've been trying to figure out how I did it ever since.


You can spot a technomancer by how well technology works in their presence. Ever have a computer simply fail to work properly until you've got the technician on the phone? Fucking magic.

"Restart your computer," is the technomancer's Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram.


Interesting campaign: "R.I.P. The Known"


I just happened to register the domain: http://reality.rip

I'm a bit of universe bewildered by the fact that a bit of universe can feel bewilderment at all.

Versling

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Re: Make the Sceptics Convince Themselves -- Project
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2016, 07:00:37 am »
Just checked and TheKnown.rip is available.  ;D
I'm a bit of universe bewildered by the fact that a bit of universe can feel bewilderment at all.